In today’s fast-paced world, career changes have become more common than ever. Navigating this transition successfully requires strategy, perseverance, and the capacity to seize opportunities. In this episode of The Standout Jobseeker podcast, Shawn Gerard shared invaluable insights into making a career change, creating opportunities, and standing out in your field. Here’s what we learned.
Episode timestamps
00:00 Introduction: Making a Career Change
00:12 The Revelation: Deciding to Change Careers
00:15 Educational Pursuits: University of Denver
00:29 Initial Doubts and Realizations
00:37 Professional Development Enthusiast
00:43 Networking and Its Importance
00:54 Applying Emergency Management Skills
01:07 Innovative Thinking in Operations
01:16 Ethical Decisions and Preparedness
01:30 Learning from Various Sources
01:40 Taking Risks and Facing Fears
01:47 Seeking the Right Culture and Mission
02:06 Interview Strategies and Questions
02:22 Leveraging Generative AI in Job Applications
02:38 Quality Over Quantity in Applications
02:57 The Importance of Being a Good Learner
03:28 Transferable Skills and Continuous Learning
03:47 Unexpected Opportunities and Networking
Embracing the challenge
“I felt really, not so much trapped, but like, resigned to my fate of like, I’m just going to have to do this. I prepared for this my whole life. This is what my degree was in. This is what my experience is in, and this is just the way it is. And at best I’ll be able to kind of do something adjacent to it.”
— Shawn Gerard
Shawn’s journey began with a stark realization. Despite having no background in psychology, he boldly pivoted toward emergency management. This moment led him back to the University of Denver, driven by a passion for helping others. Shawn underscores the importance of embracing those revelations and committing to new paths, even when they seem daunting.
The importance of networking
“Even though I didn’t have emergency management experience, I was going into these book clubs and contributing significantly to the conversation. So it kind of let them almost not interview me, but get, get to know me in that phase.”
— Shawn Gerard
Networking isn’t just about collecting contacts; it’s about forming meaningful relationships. Whether it’s a book club or a professional gathering, these connections can provide guidance, open doors, and offer support. Sydneys’ insight highlights how everyday activities can be potent networking opportunities.
Utilizing education and experience
“I thought I was going to use my emergency management degree and skills to go do emergency management work, but it kind of just gave me a common language and vernacular.”
— Shawn Gerard
Education can often lead us to unexpected places. Shawn found that his degree provided a common language and skill set, which was instrumental in his professional development, even beyond the immediate field of emergency management. The key takeaway is to remain open to how your skills can translate across different domains.
Continuous learning
“I’m a professional development nerd. I’m always reading professional development books, podcasts, documentaries, everything like that.”
— Shawn Gerard
Being a lifelong learner was a recurrent theme in Shawn’s story. He emphasizes that personal development doesn’t stop with a degree. It requires constant learning through books, podcasts, and documentaries. This habit not only enriches one’s knowledge base but also keeps one adaptable in a constantly changing job market.
Tailoring your resume
“Unfortunately in the, just the competition of the job market today, we have to be tailoring resumes to every position that you apply for.”
— Shawn Gerard
Tailoring your resume is crucial to align with the expectations of potential employers. Shawn’s experience teaches us that through careful reflection and adjustment, we can better present our qualifications, enhancing our chances of success.
Tailor your resume like Shawn did
Facing challenges and learning from interviews
“Even if you don’t get the next interview…, it’s like almost using interviews as learning opportunities in themselves.”
— Sydney Myers
Interviews should be viewed as learning opportunities. Each one provides insight into what skills or qualifications are needed and helps refine your interview techniques. Sydney’s perspective encourages individuals to use every interaction as a step toward better understanding and improving themselves.
Transferable skills and open-mindedness
“I really think it’s being, being a learner and open-minded that, you know, on, in my free time, I’m just exploring and learning new things.”
— Shawn Gerard
Transferable skills are often overlooked. Shawn and Sydney both stress the significance of recognizing and leveraging these skills. An open mind, coupled with a continuous pursuit of knowledge, can reveal opportunities in the most unexpected places.
Shawn Gerard’s journey offers a comprehensive roadmap for anyone contemplating a career change. His story illuminates the combined power of education, networking, continuous learning, and the strategic presentation of one’s skills. By adopting these principles, we can set ourselves up for success, whether we’re initiating a career shift or seeking to excel in our current roles. Remember, the journey is as important as the destination, and with dedication, every change can be a step toward growth.
Transcript
Sydney: Okay. So Shawn, right now in your career, you are program operations manager for Harvard Medical School. Um, which I can imagine like as a 10 year old kid, that’s generally like not the profession that most people think of. Was that Was that always what you wanted to do? Or how did you arrive at the career path that you’re on right now?
Shawn: It was not, you know, there’s a big thing is that there’s so many more jobs out there and so many more niche jobs than people realize. We just don’t know about all them. And a lot of them we don’t even know about until we kind of happen upon them. But for me, you know, growing up, I wanted to be originally very young, a firefighter that kind of ran in my family.
And then, you know, Just the way life worked out and where I moved to, I was like, I’m not going to be a firefighter, I’m going to be a cop. So I went to school for that, and I was like, law enforcement’s what I’m going to do. My whole life kind of led up to that point, and I finally got to work in that field, and I found that I didn’t like it.
So I felt really, not so much trapped, but like, resigned to my fate of like, I’m just going to have to do this. I prepared for this my whole life. This is what my degree was in. This is what my experience is in, and this is just the way it is. And at best I’ll be able to kind of do something adjacent to it.
Uh, and I was very fortunate that I kind of had some opportunities to get a graduate degree, uh, and then was able to kind of talk my way into a position that ended up really benefiting me and helping me pivot out of that role.
Sydney: Nice. And you were, you were in law enforcement for, I think about six years, was it about that?
Shawn: Yeah.
Sydney: Okay. So then when you reach that point where you want to change careers, how do you go from Okay. A career like that where you felt like this is everything that I’ve done has led up to this. How did you start the process of changing careers? Did you, did you know what career you wanted to change to?
Like, what was your first step there?
Shawn: I was, first of all, I was very fortunate. I had worked at the University of Denver for about a year and I knew that they had an education benefit. I had never used it when I was there. I went off to a city police department for about a year, and that’s when I kind of had this revelation that I wanted to change careers.
So I went back to the University of Denver, knowing that I was going to use that education benefit, and I decided I was going to go into emergency management. That’s what my degree was going to be in. It was something that, you know, is adjacent to law enforcement, that a lot of that background and understanding would allow me to do.
Really would benefit me experience wise in, uh, so that’s what my plan was. Uh, and then it kind of ended up not working out that way again. And kind of just the serendipity of it, uh, led me to operations in the long run.
Sydney: Okay. Yeah. I love that. Like, so whenever you decided to make a career change, you didn’t go into it right away.
You kind of found like a gap job where you could start that process of like maybe getting whatever, Training or certifications you needed while still like having a job and getting paid. That, was that, was that intentional or was that, did it kind of just happen that way?
Shawn: You know, it, it was, I would love to say it was part of a grand plan, but it was really kind of like, I want to get out of this career as fast as possible.
I, yeah, left, uh, university of Denver on really good terms, and I kind of went back there and was like, Hey, I wanna come back. And they’re like, we’d love to have you. Uh, and it just worked out that they had a supervisor position open too, so I was able to kind of like. laterally transfer and then move up a little bit and It really did benefit me that you know, I had four days on three days off So I was really able to leverage my schedule to the full capacity and then leverage all the benefits I had there to my full capacity as well and really upscale
Sydney: Yeah. How, when, how did you determine like what kind of upskilling you needed to do? What, like, did you already have in mind? It sounds like you kind of already had in mind the career you wanted to go to, even though it didn’t work that way. But, so you already kind of knew like what training you would need for that.
Shawn: Yeah, not even that. Like, I just kind of knew that I wanted to help people to me. I was like, it didn’t compute in my brain. I was like, I can’t just go get a psychology graduate degree, having done no psychology before and, you know, completely pivot into that with no experience. That tends to not work well if you kind of go and get a graduate degree in something and don’t have any experience.
So I was like, this is something adjacent that I know My experience will apply to And then it kind of worked out that I found a company doing Emergency management public safety stuff amongst other things and found my niche there outside of emergency management.
Sydney: Yeah so yeah, that’s interesting like Because it sounded like you had that same goal that you always had in your careers that of that You wanted to help people.
It was just a matter of finding You the career that allowed you to do that, but was also a job that you would enjoy. I like having that, that approach rather than just kind of like picking something random, but it’s like there is a common thread here. It’s just a different role.
Shawn: Yeah, so it’s it’s really rethinking, you know, my goal was to help people and you know now i’m able to do that, uh at harvard med school by you know, organizing these programs that are Helping doctors and health care professionals from all over the world come there learn these skills and take them back to their home country. So it’s really just like how can you shift that focus or that lens?
Sydney: Okay. So then, so you got that job that was kind of like a gap job and started getting some of the, the training, but then like, what’s the, what’s the, like, at some point you have to like quit the job and make the leap to the next career change. So how did you do that without having experience in that role?
How did you land the next role? How did you manage that part of it?
Shawn: So it really benefited me that, like, I’m a professional development nerd. I’m always reading professional development books, podcasts, documentaries, everything like that. And I kind of went out and said, I’m gonna do emergency management, so I’m gonna do the best at this that I can, and I’m gonna make myself the best candidate possible.
So I was really getting into LinkedIn for the first time. Believe it or not, LinkedIn is not very popular among law enforcement. Uh, but I kind of got into it as I was moving into emergency management, just to be able to connect with people, uh, and learn a little bit about the field. And I ended up finding a book club run by an emergency management company.
Uh, I got to meet some people there. I kind of got some insights from people who were, you know, two years in all the way up to 20, 30 years into the field. And at that point I kind of identified this is the place where I want to work. And I. Reached out to the person who ran the book club who I talked to a lot and said, ‘hey, can I have an internship’ and just kind of kept sending that message every few weeks until they answered me and said, ‘Yes, you can have an internship’.
Sydney: Wow, okay. So like the job wasn’t even oh like there wasn’t a job you just asked for it
Shawn: Yeah, yeah. And they, they had, I guess, flirted with the idea of internships before and kind of what that would look like. Uh, and I had kind of been going to this book club for, you know, six months and just explaining my thought process, my ideas, and I’m a huge reader.
So You know, even though I didn’t have emergency management experience, I was going into these book clubs and contributing significantly to the conversation. So it kind of let them almost not interview me, but get, get to know me in that phase.
Sydney: Yeah. How did you find the book club?
Shawn: LinkedIn just popped up on my feed one day.
Sydney: Wow. And it was low. It was local, I guess it was in person.
Shawn: All virtual. I think the, the most we had at the peak was like three or four countries involved.
Sydney: Wow, man, that’s like, um, that’s such a stroke of what, like you say in serendipity is like, but that’s also so true is like, I hear so often that networking is so important and it doesn’t have to be like going to a networking event.
It doesn’t have to be like that. Networking just means like getting to know people and going to different, like a book club like that. So then, um, how many times did you have to message him about the internship before he gave in?
Shawn: I, I don’t remember. I probably should go back and look at the messages, but it was certainly no less than three.
Uh, over the course of a few weeks, and it was kind of like, I messaged him, he didn’t answer. He was probably too busy. And, uh, I’ve messaged him again and then he was like, Oh, let me get back to you. And then I followed up on that, uh, and then kind of, you know, just kept pushing and not like, and that’s the, the hard part here is you have to figure out what that line is of like, you don’t want to be messaging this person every day.
Like, Hey, what’s going on? Hey, you told me you’re going to respond to me. You want to find that nice balance of like, you know, Message, maybe a week later, maybe three weeks later, maybe five weeks later and say, Hey, I just, but you know, before I kind of move on with my life, I wanted to check in again. So it’s really finding that balance.
Sydney: Yeah. Was it, um, was it a paid internship or like, how did you manage the budget during that time?
Shawn: Yeah. So it was a paid internship and I was again, very fortunate that I had, uh, four days on three days off and, you know, two of those days I finished at 2 PM. So. I ostensibly had like three, four days out of my week where I could work almost full days at this internship, uh, and then, you know, was able to prove my value and really take advantage of that opportunity and kind of find problems to fix and find things that I could do to be useful.
And eventually, you know, they kind of said, what’s, what’s your goal for the future? And I said, I want to work here and made that known and parlayed it into a full time gig.
Sydney: Wow. Okay. Um, did I, I liked that idea of like being resourceful, like maybe not everyone is in that situation, like the same situation you were, but just finding what the opportunities are being resourceful with it.
Um, doing the, so I’m curious about like doing the, the internship rather than just like going out and applying for the job was the thought process there because. You didn’t have the professional experience yet.
Shawn: Yeah, being in that book club was a really great opportunity for me to, you know, be alongside people who had been in this field for 20 years, the people who are hiring for those positions.
And they really kind of expressed to me that, you know, emergency management especially, like, degree in and of itself will not get you a job. You need to have some kind of experience. So I knew I was going to be drilling away at entry level, you know, positions for a long time before I heard anything or staying longer at this kind of gap job to get some volunteer experience.
There’s lots of great volunteer organizations, Red Cross, Team Rubicon, stuff like that. So it was a little bit of that, but it was also, you know, that I loved the culture of this company. And, you know, like the book club, I was like excited to go to every week. And I was like, if this is what they’re doing, like, for this hour of the week, what are they doing the rest of the time?
Sydney: Oh, yeah. And then how long, so how long did you have the, the internship, like doing that kind of gap? How long did that process take to get the experience you needed, get the training you needed to parlay that into a full time role?
Shawn: So it was about three to six months. Oh, okay. Somewhere in that timeline.
But it was also so that, I, I went into that thinking like, I’m going to be an emergency management person. And by the time I kind of reached the end of that and the full time role became available and I got hired into it, it was, I can’t say enough things like how grateful I am for this company that they kind of recognize something that I didn’t even recognize that, you know, I was very gifted naturally in operations and project management.
And they kind of came to me and said, Hey, you’re really good at this naturally. Opened my eyes that most people aren’t that I always thought that everybody thought that way, but if they didn’t so I’m grateful for that
Sydney: so then the the full time role you got wasn’t actually The the role that you thought you were gonna get was it was it like in a totally different field or just oh Well, it’s
Shawn: I’m not totally different because like they were doing a lot of emergency management stuff at the time But I was not contributing as much You I thought I was going to use my emergency management degree and skills to go do emergency management work, but it kind of just gave me a common language and vernacular to work on the operations and project management of that company doing those things.
So I could talk to contractors who are on the ground doing emergency management and know what they’re saying when they’re using these acronyms and what the process looks like and timelines and that kind of stuff.
Sydney: Okay. So then like, I’m curious. So when you had the, the internship, they know that you’re like transitioning careers, this is not your background completely.
So you’re kind of just like gaining that experience and that knowledge. So then how do you show when you have transitioned from, I’m just trying to gain experience and knowledge to, I can now contribute in, in a full time role? How are, how are you able to? display that to where they no longer saw you as a career changer and were just like, okay, he’s ready for the next step.
Shawn: It’s a little bit of like, I always say like, you have to make your, what you want known. Uh, you know, they’re not going to just come over and be like, Hey, we’d love to give you a job. That’s very rare. But if I’m telling them regularly, like, ‘Hey, my longterm plan is I want to work here. Like I’m, I’m committed to this. I love what we’re doing here. Grateful to be here’, that kind of thing. But it’s also everything I did. I, I, I always try to do as, as high quality as I can. So on top of that, like everything you’re, you’re doing, you’re just doing the best at it that you can also seeing like, where can you find a problem?
Where can you add value? So, you know, if I was given a project to like, look at a process, I might, say, Hey, rather than just looking at this process, can I completely overhaul it? Can I clean up where it’s captured and, you know, make it, you know, 10 times better than they were expecting to get out of this.
Sydney: Okay. And then I’m wondering, like, like if I were listening, like my reaction would be so like, were you just working like 80 hours a week? Is that what you mean? Where like, you’re just kind of putting in a lot of overtime or is it’s like, it doesn’t require that it was just like, while I was on the job, I took more initiative.
Shawn: I’m very big about work life balance. I very rarely have ever put in 80 hours a week. So it’s not that it’s really finding that initiative and kind of figuring out, you know, if I’m doing if I’m tasked with this project, how can I do this? You know, 110 percent when maybe they’re expecting 90 to 100%.
Sydney: Okay, interesting. So then, um, So you did that and then you were offered the full time role. Um, so within what was that role like? So that’s your first role as an operations specialist. Did you, were you still learning at that point? Like how long did the career transition take completely to where you’re like, okay, this is now the career that I’m in.
Shawn: It was probably about a year, maybe a little bit less. It was an interesting transition because it came so naturally, naturally to me that like, I didn’t even realize that, like, you know, what do we need an operations specialist for? Like, don’t we just follow the process? And like, everybody updates it as we go along. That’s what we’re there for. That kind of thing of like, it came so naturally to me that like, it was more so recognizing like, this seems, Oh, that’s best practice. Like that’s, that’s what we’re going to struggle to get other people to get involved in and get on board with that kind of thing. Uh, and then, you know, doing some self study meeting, uh, again, trying to meet and connect with people who are experts in the field of operations and project management and figure out what kind of skills, best practice tools I can bring into that and about six months to a year.
Sydney: Okay. So then, um, I’m curious, like a lot of a lot of this sounds like it worked out exactly the way that it needed to and going from kind of having an opportunity to get a gap job, getting the internship and now being offered the full time role. Were there any challenges that you face along along the way of trying to make this career change?
Shawn: Nothing specific. I think it was what really helped me with it is. I’m always trying to do right by people. I’m you, like, I always said, uh, like trainees when I was in law enforcement, like you have to decide what you’re going to do when you find that wallet full of cash. Far before, before you find it, like you need to know today what you’re going to do when you find that two months from now, and really just trying to do right by people, trying to do the best that I possibly can.
Um, and that is really what benefited me the most of, like, I was able to go back to the University of Denver because I had left on such a positive note and I had done such a solid job while I was there.
Sydney: Yeah, I think also, like, it sounds like you were really proactive. So like a lot of the challenges that might have come up of like, maybe I don’t know anyone in that role or I don’t have the experience or, you know, whatever challenges, because you were proactive, you were able to address those challenges before they even came up, like by doing the networking and taking the initiative and so on.
Shawn: And that’s, again, that’s probably my personal bias. Like not seeing that to like me, I was going into a new field a couple of times in these small pivots. And I was like, I, it just is natural to me to reach out to 10 people on LinkedIn and say, Hey, I see you’re the director of so and so for this company.
I’m just moving into this role. Like, do you have 15 minutes to chat and, you know, talk to me about what you do and see if you have any advice for me. Nine times out of 10, they may not answer, but that’s, I mean, that’s a great way to just kind of. Yeah. Get a little bit of insight, get some, a peek into the field, um, and that was one of the things that really actually helped me in realizing that I needed to go get some real life experience, um, was one of those LinkedIn conversations I had.
Sydney: Yeah, that’s interesting. I personally never would have thought to do that. Like I’ve reached out to a few people that I looked up to and I’m like, I’d like to talk to you, but it’s only been a few and they’re so busy. But, um, I never would have thought to do that. What, like, what made you think ‘I’m starting a new role. I should reach out to people who have had this role.’
Shawn: I must’ve heard it on like a podcast somewhere. Uh, like I, I listened and learned like such, so broadly from like airline safety to like the history of like the English language, you know, stuff like that is just so broad. So I must’ve heard it somewhere.
And I’m like, I, I felt trapped at the time. Almost. I was like, I have nothing to lose. Like what the worst they do is they don’t answer me.
Sydney: Yeah. Yeah. But I, I’ve heard that too, that informational interviews are really important because one, you get that information. You get to know, like, what is this role?
Like, what are you looking for when you hire what, you know, kind of training or experience do I need? Um, so it’s helpful for that, but you are also building your network. And now this person, yeah. They know you personally, they know your experience, and so if you get to know enough people, kind of like how you got the internship, if you get to know enough people, there might be somebody who that connection is worthwhile.
So yeah, I like that. Okay, so after making this transition into operations, you were in, uh, at that company for, um, it looks like about two and a half years. Um, you got up to being an operations lead, and then you went from operations lead to program operations manager at Harvard medical school. Now this is something that I don’t see very often when looking at career paths, where You get a promotion through another company, like another, like usually you earn a promotion and then you parlay that into that same role at another company.
So how did, how did that process work in going from being the lead there into getting the management role? What was that, that job search like and making that growth?
Shawn: So it was fairly straightforward. I had kind of applied to just a handful of things at Harvard. You know, it had, again, it had popped up on my LinkedIn.
Um, and I had great respect for, you know, Harvard and higher education as a whole. And I was like, you know, that is, I’m always looking for like, what are the kind of cultures, uh, the missions that I want to be a part of? And Harvard was definitely one of them. So I had applied to a couple of roles and. I’d actually gotten a call back for a different role.
And it was like a Friday afternoon. I met with a recruiter and she’s like, ‘Hey, this, I just want to do a quick screening call.’ And like in the first five minutes, she’s like, ‘I just want to verify that like, you’re okay with this salary.’ And it was significantly, it would have been a significant pay cut. And I was like, I am not at a point in my life where I can do that.
Uh, but I like had joked with her a little bit. I was friendly. I was like, ‘Let me save you some time. Let me get, get you out of here and get you to your weekend quicker. Have a good one.’ Uh, and I, something I said must have like, just, you know, clicked with her and she’s like, ‘You know, if you have anything else you’re interested in, let me know.’
Uh, and I had put forward the position that I’m in now and said, yeah, I had applied to this one. I’m interested in this one. Uh, and when they reached out to me to interview for this position, they said, you know, you had spoken to a recruiter earlier. Uh, she said good things about you and, you know, forwarded your resume to us.
Sydney: Interesting. So I can imagine applying for a job at Harvard. There’s gotta be a lot of competition around that. Do you know like what were some of the things that you did to to stand out? There must have been so many other applicants. What do you think helped you to stand out in that job search?
Shawn: It’s kind of three things.
So one is a little bit of serendipity. So they had said, Oh, we’re making this transition to monday.com. Uh, it says you have some monday.com experience. And I had to be like, ‘Stop. I love monday.com. I’m not sponsored by them, but I should be like, I spend my whole day in monday.com. I love it.’ So that really played in my favor.
Uh, and then. It was also, I have always have this idea. I think Walt Disney said it that like people feel perfection. So I’m always trying to be as buttoned up as possible, uh, as put together. I am. Like at least five minutes early to every meeting, I’m going to have, if you ask me to do a task, I’m going to do as perfectly as I can at it that way.
You know, as a candidate as a whole, when they think back and they’re like, well, what do we think about Shawn? You’re like, Oh, well, he showed up early. He was put together. He had answers for all of our questions prepared. They didn’t sound like they were, you know, scripted, like all that kind of stuff. Um, And then on top of it, it’s a little bit of preparing for those meetings.
I think, especially in a virtual interview environment, there’s no reason you shouldn’t have a, at least idea of where you’re going to answer these general interview questions. Like, you know, you’re going to be asked your strengths, you know, you’re going to be asked your weaknesses, you know, you’re going to be asked, tell me about a time when you were stressed, things like that.
So. Ask having those answers, not scripted, but, you know, prompts of what you want to make sure you cover. Um, and you can even pull it up on your screen when you’re doing these interviews. So that way, you know, you make sure you hit your key points. And then it’s I also always when I go into an interview or whenever I’m going to meet someone in general, I’ll go do a little bit of research about them on LinkedIn.
It’s a great resource. I always try to pick One thing that I’m genuinely interested in to connect with that person on during the meeting. Uh, so that way, you know, I know I can go into that meeting and say, Hey, I see you have this certificate and this master’s degree. All the time you’re at this job, which one of those did you find more useful and why is that?
Um, and that way I get a little bit more insight and build this connection. Uh, and then finally asking important questions.
Sydney: Oh, important questions. Okay, so what are some examples of that?
Shawn: So the questions that I always ask in job interviews or any kind of professional meeting is, what are some of the challenges of this role that, you know, you expect this role to face?
That way they know you’re thinking about it and you also get an opportunity to answer that. Like, ‘Oh, well, you know, we have really, busy stakeholders who are hard to get time on their calendar.’ You’re like, ‘Oh, I’ve dealt with that before. Here’s what I’ve done to deal with that.’ Or ‘Here’s what I would do.’
Uh, I also ask ‘What skillset or personality type is missing from your team that you’re looking for in this role?’ Um, that way, again, it’s another chance to sell yourself a little bit. Uh, and then I always close out anything like this with, is there anything I haven’t asked that I should have? Uh, and that really opens the door.
Open ended, ‘Hey, what, what still do we need to cover that we haven’t?’
Sydney: Yeah. Yeah. I like that. Um, and then what about your, your resume? Were there like, before you’ve been getting the interview, like again, among so many applicants or candidates, like what, what are some things that you did on your resume to stand out in what was probably a competitive, uh, candidate pool?
Shawn: Yeah. So. Unfortunately in the, just the competition of the job market today, we have to be tailoring resumes to every position that you apply for. So what I found really useful was to kind of look at the job description, copy that, paste it into chat GPT, and then ask chat GPT, Hey, I’m applying for this job.
Um, here’s my resume. Here’s the job description. What should I reword to get past the AI screener? What should I. Make sure that I cover about my experience. That’s crucial to the role. Is there just a word I should change? Uh, so I don’t advocate for letting chat GPT, write your resume, write your cover letter, uh, but definitely leveraging that as like, you know, we all have a red slice, these unknown unknowns that we don’t even realize.
Uh, how can you use these tools like generative AI to help you uncover those and position yourself as a better candidate?
Sydney: Yeah. Yeah, totally agree. I mean, that’s the whole thing. Job scan was based on is like tailoring your resume. It helps so much for a lot of different reasons. I mean, one, you talked about if there’s some kind of screening process or ATS they’re using, but even when the human recruiter gets it, they’re thinking about hiring for the role that is at their company, which might be different from that same job title at a different company. And so you need to make sure that you’re showing them exactly what they’re looking for. And so, yeah, tailoring it is totally necessary. Did that, did that process take a long time for you? Or I guess another question would be like, regardless of how long it took, was it worth it?
But, but was it kind of time intensive for you?
Shawn: It is a little bit. I, that’s why I think, you know, generative AI coming up in the last couple of years has been a huge benefit for that because it can really cut down on that time. You know, previously you’d have to read a role, pull out the key points or some keywords, and then figure out where you’re going to work them in.
And now you can kind of say like, what are the top five things that I should make sure I cover in my resume? And you may. Not be able to cover them. You may say, I don’t have experience in this thing, but that’s where you, in your cover letter, you can get creative and say, Hey, I’ve never dealt with this specific scenario, but I’ve done this and that may apply.
So it’s, uh, it is a little bit time intensive, but you are much better off doing that and investing the time. And you know, if you’re applying to 50 jobs a day, cut that down to 10 and get those high quality applications in.
Sydney: Yeah, yeah. Quality over quantity. Um, yeah. And, and I agree on how generative AI can help because the one thing with writing a resume is like, you’re not, not everyone is a writer.
And so it’s like, I know what I did in my career, but writing it into a bullet point is, is really, really difficult. So we actually, we added that recently because like, We would show the, the skills or like, this is what you need to put on your resume, but there’s also this recognition that’s like, even if you know that it’s hard to like, well, how do I word it or how do I write it?
And so, yeah, I find that so helpful. And then I think also that point about, um, like you, it might reveal skills or experience that you don’t have, which in itself can be helpful for knowing. Yeah. Like, should I even apply for this job? Like I remember, um, when I would be looking for a job and I would be tailoring my resume.
And there would be jobs that I, I really wanted, like, I wanted to apply for that job. But when I started tailoring my resume, I realized, like, you know, I don’t really have the experience that they would be looking for. Like, this probably isn’t a good match for me. So it helps to drive up the quality, like you were talking about, over the quantity.
Yeah.
Shawn: And I, I think that, that, that does work both ways. Because you may look at a job, I’ve definitely looked at jobs and, like, started to put together a resume in the past and been like, I, I’m not going to be, you know, I’m not going to be successful at this job. I know that. And I think there’s a key difference between recognizing that you won’t be successful and the employer won’t be happy.
So like, that’s going to equal failure in the long run, but also like for the job that I’m currently in as a program operations manager, it was very heavy on event management there. They had a lot of questions about that. And I kind of said, Hey, this, I have limited experience in that. That’s not where my primary domain is.
Here’s the experience that I do have and here’s what I would do to improve that. So that way, at least they know, you, you know what you’re getting into. You’re not going to be in over your head and you’re not lying and all that kind of stuff.
Sydney: Yeah. And, and I would say like, just from being someone who’s hired people, um, one of the, like, just one of the most important skills, like I can’t, uh, overemphasize it is being a good learner.
If you’ve demonstrated and can show, That you are a good learner. Um, that makes so, so, so many things or some other things so much easier because everyone is going to have a skills gap, like there’s, there’s no perfect candidate, so there’s always something that, that every candidate has is like, oh, I wish they had experience with this, but the ones who have shown that they are able to learn, they enjoy learning, they’re good learners.
Then that kind of fills in that gap for you. It’s almost like that skills gap goes away because I know you can learn it. Yeah.
Shawn: And really key, you can show that over the course of a hiring process. So if you apply for a job, uh, I actually did this for my current job. I applied for the job, and they said, Hey, we use, uh, this specific software.
Do you have experience with it? And I said, No, I don’t have experience with it. Uh, and then by the time I got to the next round of interviews, I was able to go in there and say, Hey, I, I don’t have experience with this. I know we talked about that previously, uh, but I’ve signed up for their online resource academy, uh, and I’m working on this specific certification.
That way, you know, you’re showing that you’re a learner and you’re actually going out and doing this thing, uh, and kind of making progress.
Sydney: Yeah, yeah, that’s, that’s such a good point. And even like, even if you don’t get the next interview or something, it’s like almost, almost using interviews as learning opportunities in themselves.
It’s like, you’re going to learn more about what skills or qualifications you might need, or just like developing your interviewing skills. And so I interviewed one, um, another career professionals or a professional who works here, actually Rob. And he said kind of the same thing. Like he would do an interview, even if he didn’t think he would get the job, or maybe didn’t even really want it.
He would do it in any anyways in order to get practice or to gain that kind of knowledge. So I like, like having that mindset and being proactive I think is another key.
Shawn: You can also. Use that as a way to figure out how to sell yourself better. So if you are applying for these jobs, and especially when you’re making that career pivot, and you kind of don’t know those unknown unknowns, you don’t know where your gaps are, you don’t know what your resume doesn’t say about you, because especially after you’ve applied for like 100 jobs, you’re, Resume just reads to you like you’re the greatest thing ever.
And that, like, I don’t know why I’m not getting hired, but in reality there are gaps there. So if you are having these interviews and you’re getting asked these questions, where suddenly you don’t know the answer to that question. Now you can figure out, like, what experience do I have in the past? If I’m applying for a project management job, I don’t have any project manager experience.
What, what did I do that, you know, was managing a project? Oh, well, I did actually do that thing at work, uh, that one time. And you know, that was managing a project. So how can I extrapolate those skills, uh, and sell myself better?
Sydney: Yeah, yeah, I think transferable skills are they’re so easy to overlook because like, sometimes you can get stuck, like, like, you can’t see the forest for the trees.
So it’s like, I might think that I’ve always only done this job. But there’s probably like, tasks in there, or responsibilities that are very similar to another job, like just because it’s different job title doesn’t mean it’s not the same things. So yeah, I like kind of looking at it from a Fresh perspective.
I think that could help. Um, okay. So this was, this was so helpful, like so many nuggets and like really practical ideas of things that I never, I never would have thought of. Um, if you had to sum up, like making this difficult transition from. Being in law enforcement, now being where you are now, what, what do you think was the key that made that process, uh, or made you successful in making that career change and then growing a completely new career?
Shawn: I really think it’s being, being a learner and open minded that, you know, on, in my free time, I’m just exploring and learning new things. And, you know, now I can go into a room with this type of person and have a full blown conversation. I’ve rarely, if ever been in a conversation or in a room with someone where I couldn’t, you know, Have a conversation with them and be interested in it for a few minutes.
And it’s also just being open minded, looking for that opportunity, making the ask, uh, and you know, sometimes you’ll find opportunities where you least expect them, or sometimes you may get a little bit of help from that person that you joked with on a call on a Friday and got them out of there early.
It’s, it’s really just being a learner and being open minded.